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In a world where chance encounters can change the course of our lives, one man stumbled upon a hidden secret that transformed the world of fundraising for Christian nonprofits. Scott Veigel, a seasoned professional in marketing and donor engagement, was drawn to the power of building strong relationships with donors. Little did he know, this would be his unexpected twist of fate. Through loyalty programs, regular updates, and a belief in the benefactor becoming the beneficiary, Scott's strategies began to revolutionize the way organizations connected with their donors. But what exactly did he discover? The answer lies within the depths of his story, waiting to be unveiled.
Scott Veigel is currently serving as the director of Sustained Giving at the Navigators. With a background in marketing and donor engagement, Scott brings valuable expertise to the table. Prior to his current role, he worked in the nonprofit sector, including at Moody Bible Institute, where he gained experience in fundraising and donor relations. With over a year of experience in his current position, Scott has a focused approach on cultivating monthly partners and improving donor retention rates. He has a strong grasp on the importance of direct mail strategies and has successfully implemented them to acquire and retain sustainers for the Navigators. Additionally, Scott is well-versed in digital marketing and is currently working on optimizing the organization's online donation form landing page. His dedication to helping small organizations and businesses with their marketing efforts is evident in his background and expertise. Listeners can expect to gain valuable insights and strategies for improving donor engagement and retention from Scott's wealth of experience in the field.
When you communicate with donors about asking for a donation, they get it more easily and more clearly if they've already tasted and seen the impact of what you do. - Scott Veigel
The key to long-term success in fundraising lies in cultivating effective donor engagement. Offering a program that provides reciprocal benefits and a deeper comprehension of the organization's mission aids in establishing a more solid connection. By maintaining consistent communication, updating donors on the organization's work, and allowing them to witness the impact of their contributions, organizations can foster stronger, lasting relationships.
If you're feeling frustrated and discouraged by the lack of donor engagement and retention in your Christian nonprofit organization, despite your efforts to connect and communicate with donors, then you are not alone! It may seem like your newsletters, social media posts, and fundraising events are going unnoticed, with minimal response or follow-through from donors. Instead of experiencing improved donor engagement and retention rates, you may be facing a constant struggle to capture and maintain the attention and investment of your supporters.
If I could bring the donor closer to that, they're like, I didn't know that that's what it took, that's what it meant, that's how it feels. - Scott Veigel
Scott Veigel, a seasoned professional in marketing and donor engagement for Christian nonprofits, stumbled into fundraising by chance. His background in Christian radio and marketing led him to discover the power of donor engagement and the impact it has on the success of nonprofit organizations. With a focus on monthly partners, Scott understands the importance of building strong relationships with donors and making them feel connected to the cause. He believes in the concept of the benefactor also becoming the beneficiary, creating a sense of closeness and understanding between donors and the organization's mission. Scott's approach involves incentivizing donors through loyalty programs and providing regular updates that foster a deeper connection. Through his experience and expertise, Scott aims to help small organizations and businesses grow their donor base and improve their fundraising efforts.
Once a donor has been acquired their relationship with the organization can just be beginning. It's important to build and nurture this relationship, keeping them informed, getting them involved where possible, and ensuring they know that their support matters. It's not just about getting them to sign up, but also about cultivating loyalty and commitment. This is something Scott is all too familiar with in his role. He places great importance on creating mutual benefits and bringing donors closer to the organization's mission. Scott refers to the construal level theory, which suggests donors can have either a concrete or abstract understanding of a project. By effectively bridging this gap he fosters stronger ties boosting their feeling of investment and involvement.
In our digital age, maintaining a strong database of donors is imperative for any nonprofit. It's not just about collecting data either, but about using it wisely. Good data management also includes ensuring information is up to date and accurate, analyzing the data, and using this analysis to inform the nonprofit's strategies. Scott sees the critical role of good data management in improving donor engagement. He identifies potential ramifications of neglecting this, warning against outdated or inaccurate records. He also acknowledges the role of AI, predicting that its adoption in the nonprofit sector will increase but cautions against losing the human touch in favor of technology. In doing so he reminds us that while data and technology are important, their primary role should always be to augment and support the human relationships that nonprofits have with their donors.
Incentives can give that extra nudge for someone to commit to monthly donations. They need not be grandiose, but rather meaningful tokens that show appreciation and provide a tangible connection with the organization. An incentive could be special updates, a small gift with the nonprofit's logo, or exclusive access to certain content or events. It's an expression of thanks that ads value to the donor's experience. Scott brings these insights to life in his role. He recommends designing a program that focuses on donor benefits alongside asking for contributions. He emphasizes the idea of bringing donors closer to organizational work by thanking them, providing updates, and offering opportunities to experience impacts firsthand. He believes that in incentivizing giving, donors can cultivate a closer understanding of the mission and deepen their engagement.
Securing sustainers or monthly donors is crucial for any nonprofit. Regular donations give the organization a certain level of stability, ensuring a continuous flow of support that can be relied upon. To achieve this, sustained outreach is necessary, backed up by solid relationships and a compelling value proposition. Donors need to see the difference they're making and know that their support is both needed and appreciated. Scott works primarily on acquiring and retaining monthly partners at the Navigators. He speaks about the effectiveness of sustained giving and how the Navigators are bolstering their direct outreach for donor acquisition, fostering a mutually beneficial relationship. By providing incentives and illustrating how contributions impact the organization, they deepen relationships and boost the engagement of their donors.
In an age where we're all connected 24/7, it's easy to think that digital is the way to go for everything. However, when it comes to reaching out to donors, sometimes the good old-fashioned way is the most effective. There's something about receiving a letter in the mail or a phone call that's warm and personal, making the donor feel valued. Plus, not everybody is tech-savvy, so traditional methods of communication can often reach a broader audience. That being said, digital platforms are indispensable for their vast reach and instant communication, making them essential for outreach. Scott identified this, recognizing the ongoing importance of traditional outreach like direct mail in his work at the Navigators, while also using digital channels like online donation forms. This balance has helped them successfully acquire monthly partners. Their strategy reflects the importance of knowing your audience and using a variety of outreach methods to achieve results.
00:00:05
Well, hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Holy Donuts podcast. So excited today to be joined by Scott Veigel from the Navigators. He's currently in a role as director of Sustained Giving. Did I get that right, Scott?
00:00:18
You did. The official title. Okay, well, tell me a little bit more about what that means, like day to day. What's that role entail? Tell us a little bit about your background.
00:00:28
Like how'd you get to the navigators? How long have you been there? And then kind of what your background is with donor relationships, fundraising, donor engagement, the whole nine yards. Love to. So really for me, what it means is I get to focus solely on monthly partners.
00:00:44
I appreciate the work that's done before me, I appreciate the work that's done after me, the marketing that goes into it, the single gift donor, that kind of thing, and mid level majors, legacy giving, all wonderful things. But I'm focused squarely and specifically on the monthly partners. I've been in the position for about a year, so I came from another ministry where I was into marketing and the fundraising, but primarily the marketing and then a larger organization, Moody Bible Institute. So they've got the education side, they've got the media broadcast side. That's kind of my background really is Christian radio.
00:01:17
For about 130 years I was involved at number of stations across the country. That's really how I stumbled into, I backed into fundraising. I didn't mean to do this. I was working at the radio stations and I loved content, I love branding, I love the marketing. And because we were nonprofit, we had to do fundraising.
00:01:38
So it was kind of a necessary evil, those fundraising people that would have to come on the air and mess with the product. But I learned that if that doesn't work, the things that I want to do doesn't work. And so motivating and satisfying donors became more and more appealing because it would make the whole machine go. And so really I've kind of straddled this kind of marketing, broadcast, online kind of media thing with the nonprofit thing going back and forth and in different ways, in radio, out of radio, in radio, out of radio, about in 2008. So just imagine how brilliant my business acumen and timing is with starting a business in 2008.
00:02:25
But I decided to kind of really focus and go all in on helping small organizations, businesses do their digital marketing, that kind of thing. So I'm just back and forth between these two worlds. But they've now, and for a number of years now have kind of come together and able to exercise the marketing and some of these kinds of things. The relationship building through fundraising and now doing it with the navigators and monthly partners, that's awesome. And so with that role in navigators, I think it's one encouraging to hear a ministry that has a role specifically for those monthly partners, right.
00:03:01
For that sustained giving, those people who have committed and said, hey, we'll help you support your budget because we know that this sustained giving is planable, it's better for budget. It's also, we all know, more likely to lead to major gifts at some point. So curious to know with that role, what percent of that is digital kind of touch point and how much of that is really digital focused, how much of that is traditional, offline like relationship building, coffees, lunches, events. What's kind of that mix? There was new to me.
00:03:33
I've been around direct mail and programs and how important successful they can be. They're still a thing. It's going to be a thing for a while. And this was something that really opened my eyes. Coming to the Navigators is just how big their direct mail program is and how that was influencing a lot of their sustainer acquisition.
00:03:54
So I come from the world where you grow your monthly partners. They kind of come from that pool of single gift donors, that kind of thing. With radio, you've got an audience that have an affinity for what you do, so you can kind of even go direct to them and convert direct to monthly partners. But navigators really are spending a great deal of time, effort, resources around direct acquisition of monthly partners outside of the sphere of ministry that they're involved in. That was kind of a new thing for me because that's work.
00:04:28
You've got to find a good vendor that is able to sift through that kind of data and serve up these prospect lists that hopefully we'll see a good conversion rate. And so direct mail, and we use a couple of different vendors for data that really provide us some good targets. So it has been kind of largely that and growing that side of things as opposed to digital. Digital. We're growing that.
00:04:58
We've recently moved to Salesforce, so our online donation form landing page is still being tweaked and worked. So there's certainly some opportunity for us there and it's consistently growing, but I think we'll be more of a focus now once we get things humming a little bit better. Yeah, I love that. Well, it's so cool to see because I think me as a digital native, I always come into nonprofit and I'm thinking digital, digital, digital. And one of the things that has been refreshing, surprising fun is to get in with ministries and figure out, like every ministry is different and everyone has a different audience and some things that you think, no way would that ever work.
00:05:40
Turns out it's crushing over there. And then some things that you think, oh, this is a slam dunk. No, that doesn't work at all for this ministry. And so it's humbling to see, hey, every audience is different. But within some of that outreach, because I love that you all are doing, hey, direct monthly sustainer outreach.
00:05:57
Like, we don't want to bring you in on a first time gift and then hope to convert at some point down the road through cycles of journeys, but we're going direct to, hey, we want to get you on board as a monthly partner with us. One of the questions I want to ask you was about strategies, like some things that have worked well, have there been any themes in those direct appeals that seem to, oh, this really clicks to get someone to go from, Maybe don't even know about the navigators or lightly familiar with them into, yeah, I'm going to sign up on a monthly basis because you're not just asking for one gift, you're literally getting them to sign up for every month for perpetuity. I'm on board with you all. Any principles, messaging, calls to action, anything that you all have found that you've said, hey, this seems to work really well. Let me back up from the Navs for just a moment.
00:06:42
Matt. There have been a couple of things, and this is how I've approached it in the past, where I've seen success, and I think it is meaningful. One is this whole idea of coming up with a program, a loyalty club, the incentives to come on, and then what is a part of your monthly subscription that benefit the benefactor? And I'm going to spend a little bit time there. That is one strategy that I think is one of those that I'd recommend.
00:07:11
I think it can be a real game changer for a couple of different reasons. So with this idea of the benefactor becoming also the beneficiary, you address something that I came across a number of years ago that was just so very interesting. It's called the construal level theory and it basically is the psychology. I know I'm like, what? I went to seminary, but that word is even too big for me.
00:07:41
But it was this idea where it's the psychology of distance, so it addresses the understanding that in our case, a donor has that. It's either abstract about what you do, who you are, or concrete. So it has to do with how close they are to what you're doing, who you are. And I'm thinking, that's it. That's the hard part sometimes of an organization justifying their existence.
00:08:10
I'm so jealous of nonprofits that care for children and puppies. How easy is that? You show a picture of a puppy, you don't have to do any work. So for the rest of us that have to work hard at justifying why we exist, what we do, it was this understanding that if I could bring the donor closer to that, they're like, I didn't know that that's what it took, that's what it meant, that's how it feels. And so it's this idea of the benefactor also benefiting from what you do.
00:08:49
If I could pull that off, they're going to know what we do, know what it means, know how it feels. And so that concept of disclosing that proximity, that distance, coupled with the subscription economy just kind of gave me a lot of ideas. So if you remember, I think it was a pretty big book called Subscribed. That kind of hit four or five years ago. It landed with a splash because I think everybody's like Uber and all these kinds of things.
00:09:24
I just want the service. I don't need a car, I just need a ride. And just that whole subscription economy just started to flourish. And how we could apply that, being a donor and a monthly partner, think of donor subscriber, think of benefactor benefiting from who you are, what you do, to understand that. So then the whole program, the loyalty club, takes on a whole different effect.
00:09:52
Because my purpose in that is not just to acquire them and retain them, but I need them to understand what we do. So the depth of the relationship goes deeper. When that happens, the strength of the relationship, it increases their involvement. So if you want a donor to be really involved with your ministry and it could be attending an event, turning you on to other donors, giving you money, I mean, so many things. The depth or strength of the relationship goes hand in hand with that.
00:10:25
And the way to do that is for them to see, get up close and know who you are and what you're doing. So that's kind of my we. I don't even know what the question was, Matt, but bring me back there in a. Yeah, yeah. So it's just my background, really giving them this good experience, really helping them see and understand who it is, who we are, what we do the way.
00:10:49
So this is my recommendation on acquiring donors directly. Is, I think there is something to this incentivizing because you put out front, this is this thing that if you got that, it would close some distance. It would help you understand who we are, what we do. Then you bring them into a program that really cycles through four things. You certainly are thanking them for their giving, you're asking them to give, but you're updating them in such a way.
00:11:21
So it's really relational and you're feeding them. And that's kind of why I'm getting off on this whole idea of the benefactor becoming the beneficiary. They're getting to taste and see what you actually do and how it affects people and what feels. So when you communicate with them about asking for a donation, they get it more easily and more clearly. And so that's my big thing.
00:11:44
So coming here to the Navs now and really trying to exercise that more for those donors that are giving to staff members. So our ministry revolves around on campus ministry, college campuses. We've got camping ministries, we're in the military, leading Bible studies, discipleship, these kinds of things. And for the most part, people can kind of relate to that. I know the person that I'm supporting that's on the college campus and they're doing these things and they're a good, I mean, they're pretty personally directly connected to it.
00:12:17
On the other side, I'm more of in the organizational fundraising. So people are coming from and this direct acquisition from these prospect lists don't quite know what we're doing. So how do I close the gap, the proximity, get them closer to it? And I think really it comes down to something that I'm starting to test and see how we can digitally bring them in with an incentive, get them into a regular communication that really pulls on these four levers that I mentioned. So thinking, asking, feeding and updating so that they're brought in, they're tasting and seeing.
00:12:54
And I think then, as I've seen in the past, specifically with bio Institute, we're really beginning to thrive. They retain longer, they get a benefit up front. The subscription economy just plays its part and helps you leverage that a little bit so you get something for giving. Not that they're doing that per se, but they benefit too, in addition to the people that they're helping. So long answer.
00:13:20
But again, that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm just in the process of developing welcome systems for these new monthly partners. To bring them in, we have an email sequence digitally. So we're caring for those four levers, each and every month they get some content, they get an ask. We just really just are persistent and consistent about that cycle month in and month out.
00:13:45
That's great. And so something super common with the navigators that we see with other ministries. Obviously you have kind of two layers. Right. So you mentioned staff, that's all raising their own support.
00:13:54
Right. So they're doing personal outreach, but then you've got not general files, because we all know what that means, but your organizational giving. Right. Talk to me a little bit. We're getting the weeds here, which I love.
00:14:04
This is why I love. Hopefully it makes sense, too. Oh, it does. Well. And everyone listening, this is the fun thing, Scott.
00:14:10
Everyone listening is like a nerd for this stuff, too. So it's like we're a weird little band of people who actually enjoy this stuff, are all working through the same things. That's why I like to go in the weeds like this. Okay, so talk to me about how you are thinking through the interplay between staff support, right. So, hey, I gave to staff member Bob in Philadelphia, right.
00:14:32
And I get some updates from Bob. But then does that mean I'm automatically now a sustained giving partner or is that different? Or if I'm a sustained giver, and also I support five different missionaries, which I'm sure is common. Right. People have a personal connection somehow.
00:14:48
But then also sustained giver. How are you all thinking through the communication channels there and how you're not crossing signals, how you're not making asks on the same days for different things? Can you walk me through how you are thinking through that at all? Because I think that's a really common struggle that a lot of ministries have. And it's a really good question, and I'm kind of glad you brought it up.
00:15:08
Challenging one. Yeah. So thanks for the easy question. But genuinely, by and large, we do well to separate them. So you start out that way and you care properly for your own in that sense.
00:15:26
But there are a couple of different ways that we intentionally work together to introduce someone. Let's just use Bob in Philadelphia so he's on staff. There are ways that we can expose them to the other parts of the organization, because what's helpful, I think, is to understand. So as a donor to a staff member, to Bob, to them. The navigators might be this big, but really it's this big.
00:15:58
And whatever size doesn't Matter, but there's more going on than just what's going on campus. So if you like what's going on on campus, what about these other things? And so there are ways that in, for instance, specifically so the monthly donors or the donors to the staff member get communications from the navigators. That does open up the broader picture. Now we highlight and elevate staff in those communications, but they're able to see the periphery a little bit and be exposed to it.
00:16:36
So that's regular throughout the year. So you gently, kindly, even passively kind of expose them to it. I think the other opportunity that we have is to then intentionally do so during year end. So when their focus on their campus or their individual in their campus that they're supporting the donor, again gets the breadth of kind of the mission, just the bigger, broader vision for the navigators and what it's all a part of and what it can mean. So I think those two pieces, two opportunities are what we leverage pretty well.
00:17:15
Just want to recall if there's anything more specific that I can add to that right now, because it is certainly a dance. We certainly need to be careful of how, and sometimes accidents happen. Lists cross and you're like, why are you contacting them kind of thing? But we are doing a lot and I think this is maybe a third thing. So if you're on the organizational side and you're trying to build that relationship with the staff siDe, do all you can for them.
00:17:47
My boss, Abby Anderson, so she is adamant about caring for that relationship, their relationship and really just supporting them. And so I think from that you establish a rapport that allows you to have the kinds of conversations that lead to collaboration. In some cases. We have a program called UPLIFT, where if a staff leaves a campus, what do we do with the donor? And so just being able to expose them and we support their being exposed to other staff members or campuses or even possibly more broadly the organization as a whole.
00:18:23
But we're real careful about helping them care for their donors and their relationships. Yeah, sounds like there's just, for every organization, there's going to be intentional rhythms, times of year, touch points, moments that arise in the rhythms of the way your ministry operates that you're going to have to pick, hey, we're not going to overlap all the time, obviously, and we got to pick our points, right and select whether it's on the calendar or in the kind of donor lifecycle journey. What are the points where we're going to intentionally have these kind of, I think of it like the old know this is going to date myself a little bit, like the sitcoms like NBC or ABC, where they did the crossover episodes, right? And it's like a show with wings. Right.
00:19:07
And it's like what's happening here, right. These worlds are colliding, but it's almost. Right. Right. But it's like finding those times where it's, hey, where are the places we're going to intentionally overlap for these crossover opportunities to try to make sure that the donor relationship doesn't only stay with the staff person, because that's ultimately an organizational risk.
00:19:26
That, for example, if that staff person is no longer with the ministry, well, if that donor goes with them. But they really did love what the organization did. It's a massive opportunity to have them continue on with the organization. Sounds like just finding those intentional touch points is going to be key for anyone out there. It is.
00:19:42
And something else came to mind, Matt, that I think would be helpful as well. Because I think when you consider two things. First, I was going to just add that there should be a point at which there's an understanding and agreement where donors of staff, staff members go through a wealth screening as well. So their potential to give then should warrant additional conversations in addition to how they're supporting staff. So I think if the staff is being fair, the field should understand that and encourage that.
00:20:22
So in that world of possible tension between don't take my donors or ask them for money when I need money kind of thing, what is in the best interest of the organization? And can you come to an understanding and agreement where they go through a wealth screening and determine and then decide and then work together to communicate with that particular donor about other opportunities? Because when you think of share of wallet and you have an organization where they can give to a field staff in other ways, why wouldn't you? I mean, it's a pretty strong argument to say field staff donor. There are other wonderful things going on.
00:21:05
A part of the navigators or your organization that you want them to be exposed to? Because again, it's serving the whole organization. If someone is giving one, is it the average four or five ministries or organizations, nonprofits? I heard a stat from one of our guests. This is about two weeks ago, I believe.
00:21:25
I think it was Brian heard from the Coulson Center. Who you. I'm not sure if you know Brian. Yeah, Brian. So Brian, his stat that he's 28, 30 years of consulting the space.
00:21:36
He said that his data is that on average, especially evangelical donors, 17 different ministries. What? 17 is the data that he has. But that's dialed into more of the evangelical world, which blew my mind was like, oh my gosh, that's even more. No way.
00:21:52
Right. And so, yeah, fascinating. Yeah, I'll hit him up. We should tag him on LinkedIn for this show.
00:22:00
17 different, the average. And that could have been major gift donors. It may have been something I may have missed. 17 was the number he gave and that just floored me because it makes sense though, and you don't want to be number 17, obviously. Right.
00:22:14
But that's pretty convicting. If I'm only giving to six, I'm bringing down the average. But when you think of that idea or concept, just that people are going to give to more than one will expose them to the different facets of your organization and possibly see them give to more than one. So I think it's a pretty strong argument to establish the relationship agreement, understanding with the field, between the organization and the field, so that, hey, we are in this together, we're going to grow together, let's work together. I know it sounds so easy, but those are some.
00:22:50
It is. Tactically, though, one of the reasons too that we always talk about our philosophy with tech, because so much of this comes down to like, hey, this also requires on your data being good. Like your fields have actually having your donor records updated. All this kind of stuff. We talk all the time about the best software for your organization is not, hey, listen, we have a recommendation of what we love, this or that or the other.
00:23:11
Ultimately, the best software for your organization. Is the one that gets used.
00:23:18
You can have the greatest tool in the, that you're paying a lot of money for and has all the right specs. But if your field staff won't use it because they think it's clunky, it doesn't Matter how great it was in the sales process, it doesn't work. And so the best tool is the one. What's the easiest thing for your staff to use that actually gets the accurate, appropriate data? Because if you can get your field staff consistently updating their donor records, their donor information, even notes and donor communication, that's going to make your job as an organization so much easier than, hey, only 20% of our field staff actually updates their donor records on a regular basis.
00:23:50
And setting up good automations and smart stuff on the back end is huge with that. But yeah, huge proponent of that. Because that field staff relationship is critical to try to get those donors more engaged in the life of the ministry. Well, hey there. Holy donuts.
00:24:02
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00:24:27
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00:24:56
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00:25:06
Okay, so we talked the strategy stuff. Tell us a little bit, Scott. Like, you've been in the space for a while. What's a trend that you're seeing right now that's really exciting to you in Christian nonprofit fundraising, donor development, marketing, however broad of a tent you want to draw over that? What's one that's really exciting and then what's one that's a little bit concerning for you as you look out there?
00:25:24
Okay, well, it's funny. I think my answer is going to be both. It's going to be exciting and concerning, and I'm going to jump on the AI bandwagon a little bit. I love it. Because here's why I say that.
00:25:34
So I'm going to back up from that because I think it's, well, certainly here to stay. There's no stopping it. It's a Matter then, of doing right by your donors with it, I should say. But I worked with a vendor. I'll mention them pursuant.
00:25:48
Great group of people. So if you want a consultancy, there's an idea for you. But we were back at Moody and they put together, and I think it's actually led to their giving DNA, part of their company even. But the point was, they took our data, we worked on our data to get clarity. So you talked about just getting your data right and the hygiene there, but putting yourself in a position where you can be predictive.
00:26:16
That, to me, especially with monthly partners, because we want the certainty. But then being able to look into the future and being able to have a clearer picture of where you want to go and what the expectations should be. And just around predictive analytics. So if you're able to look historically and see where donors are acquired, retention rates, all the formula, and you really have a strong sense of the real specifics of your. Some call it a donor replacement ratio or donor coverage ratio, but you're basically what you're acquiring, what you know, what you're able to retain in lapse.
00:26:59
And you work that out to a point where, and I was doing this back at Moody to a degree, I would know that if this campaign didn't generate this number of names, my pool is too small to convert, get to my goal of a number of monthly partners. And so now we work on that thing. So then I'm able to look ahead at, well, third quarter, we're going to be down. We've got to come up with something. So coming from that perspective and need really, I think that we have is nonprofits in particular.
00:27:33
AI is really a good help around that. Where I think being fed your data and being able to really help you parse out a path forward is certainly the positive. Of course, the negative is they're not human. It's not human. You're the one that cares for the donor, and it probably can't replace that.
00:28:00
But here's where I'm thinking specifically. So in addition to the predictive analytic, I really like the idea of delivering what the donor wants or needs the way they want it when they need it. That is the golden. WHat am I thinking of? The Holy Grail?
00:28:26
It's golden. It's holy. Anyway, it is. So if you're able to do that better, I think the benefit will be obvious, the reward will be obvious. And so I think AI has that potential where you're able to really take a campaign.
00:28:47
So we send a direct mail appeal on September 14. We've got this donor that responds on September 18 with a check, and you literally are able to go boom, boom, boom, boom with your messaging. What did they respond to? Do they have a note on the check that indicates a preference? Did the welcome series that you put in front of them following the gift get some kind of response?
00:29:14
Where, now we know that we know where they live, but they have an interest in horses, and so how do we really shape their path, specifically or individually? And I think there's some great potential there because we want to give them the right experience. As I mentioned, the closer they are to our being able to make them feel like we get them. We really get you. We're thinking the way that you're thinking.
00:29:40
We get you. So. Well, I think that's going to be a significant plus. And I think with AI, the thing that we're seeing right now at least, is it's not really being talked a lot about in nonprofit space. But our thought is one of the most important things is going to be the rise.
00:29:55
Right now, everyone's familiar with kind of chat GBT or some of these basic one off input, output sort of AI. The struggle with that, I think for a lot of nonprofits right now, even on some of these things, is like you're creating. If we're talking about one donor journey where it's check, then message, then this and that, I mean, that's one data point. But to actually, the end result of that is, wow, you have to have a lot of thought process around. Cool.
00:30:20
That's just one person's experience. But now, if we're scaling that tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, how many different experiences are we going to have to custom? How do we even process what to do with all that information? Great, we've got insiGhts, but we just got 125,000 new insights and we're still our same size team. How do we even process those insights and take action on them?
00:30:41
We can take action on maybe 50 of them a month with 50 donors, but we're going to start creating so much information around their experience, which is great, but then how do we process? So the big thing that we're kind of looking at and thinking through a lot is, if you heard this term, AI agents, it's essentially artificial general intelligence's ability to not just spit out a one for one data, but then to actually train itself on coming up with its own suggestions for what to do with said data and how to implement the follow up for those actions. And it allows things like a large language learning model to not just say, okay, cool, here's the three patterns we notice in your donor experience for this one donor. But, oh, by the way, now I've decided, based on how you program me in advance, now I can take action to go create a follow up email sequence and create a point for this. Now it can actually start executing on the deliverables to actually make touch points with them realistic.
00:31:38
And that's that second layer of not just one for one artificial general intelligence, but implementing agents along with it, that can then take artificial intelligence driven actions along with that by linking it to some of your tools, say that's linking it to your salesforce or linking it to your pardot or whatever that is, to then start actually updating donor records. Now that's where it gets scary, and that's where you better have some great AI prompt engineers. So maybe that should lead us to your concern part about AI. As we also got right, I was just recalling like three or four notes that I recently received from donors. So I ran a campaign where I looked at people writing checks and wanting to convert them to electronic giving, and they just wouldn't have it in their notes.
00:32:28
Kind of pointed to the concerns that we have with AI. Machines are running everything. How do I even know if yOu're real and what you're suggesting is true and right? And you're right. We need to provide Overwatch oversight of anything it would potentially generate.
00:32:46
We can't let them directly touch the donor, necessarily. And so I think there's a great need or great opportunity for nonprofits to be the differentiator there with the care that they provide their donors. So they're, in a sense, using the technology and leveraging it appropriately, ethically, necessarily. And so I think that's where plant our stake, where we just make the conscious decision and even, maybe even use it, or stated in some of the communications that it's great and everything, but we know better and we're not going to let it affect our relationship. I was talking with the owner of MDS.
00:33:29
They're a big Tele ministry marketing organization. And I asked him about, I said, you could have Al Pacino voice the message to a donor. You'd get perfect representatives contacting your donor. Kind of smile a little bit, and he's like, we're never going know that's not what we're doing, who we are. I mean, it's just not going to be.
00:33:57
But I think it was Seth Godin. He was on the interview. He was talking about the fact that the interview was just talking about the fact that he reads his own books and does his audiobooks, and he had basically AI take his voice, read one of his books. And his wife says, the wife couldn't tell the difference. You know, it just, we're not going to be there.
00:34:21
We'll be the, you know, plant our steak and kind of say, hey, we're just not going to do that. But that's the concern. I mean, you could have, it's like Bart Simpson kind of running this huge facility. Doesn't Matter who's in charge. I mean, it just runs itself.
00:34:36
It just functions and all these buttons and whatever, just take care of itself. And it does, it gets a little scary along the side. Well, with tech trends in general, this is our kind of general posture towards AI, but really just all tech in general, which is typically what you see is you see kind of like early adopters, right? And it's under the radar. No one really knows about it.
00:34:58
And then you have the pioneers who are kind of early stage, right? And that's when it starts getting kind of big. And if we could say sexy, everyone's doing it, everyone's heard of it, but no one's really implementing it yet. And then it kind of gets mainstream adoption. It gets to where, oh, yeah, everyone's kind of using it, which I think is probably the next year, we'll come on with that in the nonprofit space with AI, where it becomes, you've got some people, early adopters, who are playing around.
00:35:20
Chad GPT they're using it for some copywriting here and there, but not full scale. Like, let's really implement this. And then what often happens is that you kind of hit a wall where the effectiveness of a technology early on, you get a massive uptick in productivity and in almost like risk return ratio in the early days when you are early into it. And then once you kind of hit mass adoption, the return of that actually starts to plummet pretty quickly to where, now that everyone's got it, it's not that valuable anymore, right? So you see that with social media, right?
00:35:58
If you're early on any platform, then massive, massive return on your time spent. Or like, if you were one of the first nonprofits on TikTok, you could have gotten massive amounts of followers and exposure. But by the time everyone's got TikTok, all of a sudden you spend a lot of time having to create content for it, for actually very little follower account, right? And so it's going to be similar with AI, I think, because it's been the trend with every technology that I've ever seen, which is early adopters get a huge amount of the upside and they also carry all the risk of downside, right? If it goes bad and then once it actually gets to mass adoption phase and all the downside is gone, you've actually lost most of the upside as well.
00:36:37
And there's still a little bit of a remaining to where you're, hey, it still makes us more effective, but some of that upside is going to go away because now if everyone's got AI this, AI that, then it's not any more an advantage or an ROI savings. I mean, it is over the past for us, but if everyone else is doing that as well, it seems like, well, if we're not doing that, we're not ahead now using AI. We're just not falling behind anymore. Right. And so you'll see kind of a level set where, well, everyone's using AI now.
00:37:04
So now all of a sudden no one's thinking of, well, I used to pay all this money to this company to write a ton of copy for us. Well, we don't anymore to use AI. Well, now no nonprofit is going to be doing that. So everyone's going to be using AI copywriters. Right.
00:37:18
So I do think we have kind of a sweet spot window here. We've got another year where you can get some outsized rewards with AI and we may hit a point in a year or two. And I hope I can clip this and sound prophetic when we come back in like two years and repost this where you're not going to see the same massive seismic leap forward with adopting new technology that maybe you would now. So it's always trying to frame that for folks on the technology side of like you got a window, so take advantage of it, use it, but also be smart, have good policies around. So, okay.
00:37:50
I have eaten up so much of your time today, Scott, last question. I've enjoyed it. It's around resources. I know you mentioned a book earlier that you really like, any books, podcasts, blogs, articles, anything like that that you love to recommend to other people in Christian ministry and Christian nonprofit space. I'll say this.
00:38:08
So again, being the firm believer in the subscription economy and content, feeding the relationship and all that stuff, I really like Amy Porterfield. She has a podcast. She does a lot of great content publishing. But when you listen to her or read her stuff or receive her stuff, it is so on target, so polished. Just what an experience she provides.
00:38:41
It's fun to get asked to be a part of her stuff in the invitation and stuff that she sent. Just everything that she sends. So Amy Porterfield, great podcast. I think it's amyporterfield.com. So that'd be great teacher, great content, great marketing ideas that can be applicable in this whole coming up with your loyalty program and caring for monthly partners.
00:39:05
I did mention the book subscribed. I think there's some things in there that again, you just got to get your mind around this idea of donors as subscriber. And I think that really helps with just thinking about the relationship and what you provide them and the experience that you can build for them that's helpful. Another content marketing side of things, content Marketing Institute. Okay, so there's Joe Pulitze and I think Robert Rose are part of that scene.
00:39:32
But again, it's this content is what you build and create to provide the experience that you want. And then lastly, I got to plug next after, so getting back to true fundraising and just testing and these kinds of things digitally are not. And then call Matt and get some consultation. Really good stuff. Honestly, Matt, I appreciate our getting to know one another at a recent conference and just how you explain some things and provide some great advice.
00:40:07
So I recommend you too. Thank you, man. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Scott. Seriously enjoyed it, as anyone who's watching this can evidence like, we went long and that was totally fine by me.
00:40:20
So I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Scott, if the people wanted to connect with you, what's the best way to connect you? Is it LinkedIn? Is it you? Are you a TikTok influencer by night?
00:40:30
What's the best way for people to connect with you? My wife wouldn't let me do that. I don't want to be either. I hate social media. But yeah, LinkedIn would be the place.
00:40:37
So it's Scott. And then the last name is spelled V as in Scott Veigel. And yeah, reach out. Love to help in any way I can. Awesome.
00:40:46
Well, thank you so much, Scott. Appreciate the time as always. And if you are watching this and you want to reach out to Scott, please do. All resources we mentioned all the books, all the links to different podcasts and different places that you can find. Those resources will be in the show notes for the Holy Donuts podcast.
00:41:01
Thank you for watching and we'll see you back here next week.
